Sunday, August 05, 2007

Day of the Orchid


Well it's been a long break for me at the Lost Bullet Points. Fortunately, Ange has been doing a fantastic job with the book club information and keeping the site alive. However, we now have a nice juicy bit of information to digest and discuss thanks to the special orientation video revealed to the public at this years Comic-con. The back story is that this is footage that was discovered in a warehouse and so is not the complete orientation but gives us some hints about the nature of this, the sixth Dharma station. There is a lot to discuss here, so first let's start with the movie.


Okay, now the
facts:
  • In this video we have our usual orientation scientist, this time using the alias of Doctor Edgar Halowax. Another Candle related alias.
  • Doctor Halowax does not appear to have a prosthetic arm in this video.
  • The doctor is uncomfortable with this non-scientific part of his role. It seems he would much rather be working out of the lime light.
  • He is wearing a Swan station lab coat. He has also worn this for the orientation for the Barracks and of course the Swan (He wore a brown suit jacket for the Pearl orientation and a Flame lab coat for the chess computer video).
  • Those recruited for this station were not informed of it's purpose before arriving there and they were asked to tell friends and family the official line of it being botanical research. This was apparently done for their security, so it seems that even knowing what this station does can be dangerous for people.
  • The true scientific field researched at the Orchid is something "Highly volatile" and "Potentially dangerous". The suggestion is that it is safe enough providing the "elaborate safety measures" are observed.
  • Both rabbits in the video are "number 15", which as we know is one of the numbers of the Valenzetti Equation. We know that if they could change a number in the equation they would have succeeded in the goals of the Dharma initiative.
  • Having the two rabbits come into contact with each other would be very very bad. In what way we do not know.
  • When the second rabbit is spotted the doctor asks, "When did you set the shift?" the answer to this is, "Negative 20," and it seems this was either done for a duration of "9 minutes" or it was done 9 minutes ago at the point that the doctor asked, "How long?" to the lab assistant. The lab assistant pleaded that, "...they are still learning."
  • The unique properties of the island created a "Kind of Casimir effect". This is a biggie and we will look at it in more detail later. It is worth noting that the doctor seemed to be using the term as a way of describing things to other scientists, the effect may be Casimir like but it isn't necessarily what we are dealing with.
  • The additional scenes in the video not actually from the location shoot of the orientation included what appeared to be a clip of the barracks video (in which the doctor had a very still arm but it can't be confirmed it was prosthetic). There is also a clip from the brainwashing video which had the "God loves you as he loved Jacob" on it. Which suggests that did have an origin with Dharma, for some reason.
Before I move on there is one curious thing I want to bring up about the recruitment for the Orchid. If they are claiming it is botanical research, wouldn't it be difficult to get the right people for what they are actually doing? I expect the family of a quantum physicist would probably question why he was jetting off to a secret location to take part in a botanical study. So what kind of field would be both believable for the cover story and also useful for the genuine purpose of the station?

Okay, moving on, at the start of the video you will notice a mix of voices creating what is called a "cocktail effect", that is to say it's hard to make out what any one voice is saying. I took a sample of this and messed about with it a bit to try and make some sense. The clearest voice is a woman's whisper. There is also a short bit that appears to be in reverse. Here are the links to the files, see if you can make any sense of them. I will not yet post my opinions on what they say as I don't want you to be listening for anything in specific. If there is something important here I expect it is in the woman's whisper. Note that because there was a big sigh over the top of the end of her whisper it may not be a complete sentence you're hearing.

Here is the Full Audio
Here is the whisper slowed down
Here is the potentially backwards bit reversed
and finally here is what is left, basically some guy mumbling.


Max Wax

So what of our good doctor and his various bits of film?
  • He continues to use Candle related aliases. Is one of them his genuine name? It seems a little foolish if your going to use aliases to use ones that hint at your real name. However it does kind of depend on why he's using the aliases and how much he really needs to protect his identity. The names could instead hint at his role in the initiative. Candles provide light, but then a lot of things provide light. However candles are also used as a way of telling time and are often part of ceremonial practices and rituals.
  • What 's the deal with the Swan lab coat? Could it be that he was based at the Swan (at least pre-incident), but as one of the most senior scientists he was chosen to do these orientation videos?
  • With the various sci-fi possibilities on the island it is impossible to get a time line on our doctors videos. We know that there are two videos where he seems to have two functional arms, but with the islands healing capabilities that doesn't mean they were the earliest of the videos. He could have started off with one arm and had it grow back. You never know.
  • It seems unlikely that the doctors arm flickers in and out of existence but what complicates things is the Barracks video. His left arm is very still, but that doesn't mean it is a fake arm. Yet frames of that video ended up mixed with the Orchid video. Of course this video was "recovered" recently, so that doesn't mean that the spliced in bits were recorded around the same time. Logic would seem to suggest that the Barracks, Swan and Flame recordings were done post incident as they have an extra element of outside danger involved in them. The Pearl and Orchid would then be the earliest videos.
  • For those people wondering about the Pearl being on VHS while the swan is on reel to reel, the answer is that the reel to reel wouldn't be effected by the magnetic field generated at the swan and was therefore a superior storage medium.
  • The Pearl video is interesting though. If the doctor was working at the Swan then it would seem silly for him to be on the Pearl video if indeed the pearl was designed to monitor the Swan. That suggests three possibilities 1) The lab coat is a coincidence, maybe they just made too many Swan coats. 2) The Pearl wasn't intended to monitor the Swan, many stations may have had ping pong tables and showers and it is likely Ben knew how to change what was being monitored to the Swan so as to keep an eye on the Lostaways. 3) The Pearl was the very first video and was shot before the doctor began his work at the Swan. I have always wondered about the Pearl experiment. Perhaps it was just to test loyalty more then anything else (i.e. if they went back to the barracks after their 8 hour shifts and started telling people about the "fake" experiments).
  • Whatever his main role it does seem clear that Candle is a senior scientist for Dharma, he is well aware of the goings on at the Orchid as he was bossing people around when things started to go wrong and he really wasn't impressed with the problems brought up.

Papiopedilum Orchid

What's the deal with the name?
  • Well, aside from working well with the stations cover story it is again something from Greek mythology. The name Orchid comes from the Greek word for testicles. Yep, you heard that right. This is the testicle station.
  • In Greek mythology Orchis was the son of a nymph and a satyr that succumbed to his lustful urges during a feast of Bacchus (the god of wine) and attempted to rape a priestess of his temple. Bacchus had him torn to pieces by wild animals and his body scattered around the world. From these parts came the Orchid plants. His genitalia were thrown into the ocean, which then in turn gave birth to Aphrodite.
  • Greek women thought they could control the sex of their unborn children with Orchid roots. If the father ate large, new tubers, the child would be male; if the mother ate small tubers, the child would be female. This doesn't entirely fit with the other facts we have so far about this station, but it definitely fits in with the fertility themes of the island so it may be something to go on. It should be noted however that so far the names of each station have not had enormous relevance to the stations purpose as we currently understand them.


zero point energy

What about this Casimir effect?
  • This has a huge amount of possibilities and it should be noted once again that we may not be talking about an actual "Casimir effect" but instead something that could be compared to it as a way to describe it to another scientist.
  • According to Wiki: This is a physical force exerted between separate objects, which is due to neither charge, gravity, nor the exchange of particles, but instead is due to resonance of all-pervasive energy fields in the intervening space between the objects. It get's a lot more complex too.
  • The actual Casimir effect has only been observed on a very small scale, which is probably why the islands properties create only a "kind of" version of it. There are a few articles flying around that talk about how the Casimir effect relates to Nanotechnology. However because this is something that has been brought up and dismissed several times by the writters of lost it is probably not worth getting too involved in.
  • There is a lot of reference to electro-magnetic energy within the literature about this effect. So if we take into account the islands natural field and add the field created by the swan perhaps we have a Casimir effect on a much larger scale. Of course the Swan and Orchid station existed simultaniously (as we can tell from the logo on the lab coat) so that would still leave us wondering what that has to do with the Orchid station or rabbits.
  • One of the other things the Casimir effect relates to is "Zero point energy", which is something that will be VERY familiar to sci-fi nerds like myself. Some scientists (and a lot more writters of science fiction) believe that tapping zero point energy would open the doors to powerful perhaps limitless energy sources. This is kind of the holy grail of scientific energy research. Most scientists don't believe this is possible but it hasn't stopped a few from trying to harness this energy. As many of you probably already know, this is a central element to the technology of the sci-fi show "Stargate".
  • Another interesting point is that the quantum mechanics of the Casimir effect can be used to produce a locally mass-negative region of space-time. This is where the science all starts to go way over my head, but if we are talking science fiction and an effect that is only similar to the Casimir effect then we are opening a lot of doors with this. We have seen two rabbits with the same number that cannot come into contact with each other. So it could be that the effect can create a kind of negative version of an object. This pressumably isn't an actual anti-matter version as in theory it would just destroy itself by comming into contact with the matter surrounding it. But it could be maybe some kind of "bad twin". Can you say, "I'm captain Kirk!"
  • Following on from the above, the negative mass concept and the mention of a "negative 20" shift could relate to some method of trying to offset the Valenzetti numbers with this effect. We are heavily into sci-fi by that point however.
  • The other thing to note about this locally mass negative region of space time and the Casimir vacuum is that this is a big part of a theory about potential faster than light travel (the idea being that within the field of effect of the Casimir vacuum the speed of light increases and thus bends Einstiens laws on such things). This is complex, but essentially what it could mean is that you could send information back in time by using the effect. I left this until last as it seems the most likely link. However it should be pointed out that recent studies have ruled out this effect. But given that we are in a realm of highly theoretical physics here it could certainly be a plausable basis for the function of the Orchid.
Final Bullets:
  • Precognition, and messing in the timelines is an ongoing theme of Lost. We haven't seen any actual time travel, but we have seen the transmission of information from the future into the present and perhaps from the present into the past. For a long while I've suspected that they Lostaways were needed to come to the island and had their destinies manipulated by forces unknown (perhaps even themselves) to end up there.
  • If the Swan station was part of this large scale Casimir effect, that could explain (kinda) why Des got his precognative abilities by being at ground zero when the station was taken offline.
  • It occured to my while writting this, that we do not know that the conclusion of season 2, the events off the island, actually happened at the same time as the events on the island. It could be that the anomoly actually appeared to the outside world later then we thought and it was only after the events of the Season 3 finale that Penny was actively looking for Desmond like that. Although why Penny was at the other end of that communication I do not know. It could simply be that the station was set to communicate with Mr. Widmore as he may have been involved with Dharma, and it just turned out it was Penny that picked it up.
  • If there is a physical time travel element, then that could explain what the negative 20 shift was about. It could be that the rabbit itself was sent back in time 20 minutes and so it is the same rabbit and the reason they couldn't touch was due to Doc Brown's law of time travel (as seen in Back to the Future 2). I think understanding the language used between the doctor and others when the second rabbit appears is important to understanding the purpose of this station. When was the shift set = -20, for how long = 9 minutes. It does make an amount of sense for the rabbit to be sent back in time 20 minutes for a duration of 9 minutes. If this was the case then obviously they messed up as this rabbit didn't appear 20 minutes in the past of where they set him, but instead into the future.
  • If a person was to be shifted to a negative mass, perhaps he would appear somewhat like Jacob does and perhaps have an amount of precognative ability or capability to time travel in some form.
  • I am really not sure about proper time travel in Lost as I think that may be too science fiction based, but sending messages through time or having some kind of sensory perception that sense the future perhaps that is more digestable to the general public.
That's all folks. Hope that hasn't caused more confusion then before you read it. Feel free to comment with your own observations and theories. I will return later on with a summary of what we learned from the Comic-Con panel and the conclusion of season three and where it may lead us for the next season and don't forget to check out Ange's fantastic book club posts. Until then...

Namaste and good luck.

21 comments:

picsel said...

I dont reaaally understand everything but will try and get my head round the Casimir effect.. but anyway

Rabbits
1) It would appear that they messed up sending the rabbit back in time and accidentally sent it forwards. But it could also mean that they were meant to receive a rabbit from 20 minutes in the past for 9 minutes. Although surely they would be expecting it and not make such a fuss about it. Or the rabbit came from the future for 9 minutes. But the fact she says "They are still learning" would surely mean someone messed up.

Jacob
You mentioned about Jacob and how this could link to him. Perhaps Jacob was subjected to this experiment somehow and it went terribly wrong and he ended up stuck in time somehow, hense why he has such a power over things in the island and maybe as to why Locke couldnt see him, if Jacob wasin some kind of wormhole or something and Ben can see him because he has been subjected to the energies of the island longer?

I dunno but good research Fen

picsel said...

oh also,

Hieronymus

I posted alot about this over at the Lost Community before the Magic Box Episode but the Hieronymus Effect talks about how there is a connection between two things the same which is completely orginal like a fingerprint. It talks about a farmer whose crops were infested with locusts, he took a photo of the crop and put it into a Hieronymus machine next thing the insects in the fields were dead. And Charlie's middle name was Hieornymus.. I cant remember all the specifics of Hieronymus i would have to re-research but what that says about the unique connection would link to the same Rabbits appearing near one another and maybe why they should be kept seperate

maven said...

Fenris: As usual...you did a fantastic job analyzing the Orchid film!

Agree with you and picsel that what experiments they are doing with the rabbits are still in progress. Having two versions of Rabbit 15 opens up so many possibilities on the island. And if they would come in contact with each other, what would happen? It could be what happened to Jacob and why he needs help.
Also, the many alias of Marvin: Maybe we're seeing different versions of the same person. That's why they're named different variations of the same name/theme so they can be kept separate. I don't know...it's very confusing. LOL

Keep up the good work.

Capcom said...

This is a great analysis of the film Fenris!

That's a good point about what the heck the physicists would tell their families about the fact that they were doing working in a greenhouse! In my experience in science labs, a scientist would never crossover to work in another discipline other than their own, except to provide some expertise of their field that could be applied to the non-related field. I suppose that they could say that the Orchid project was along the lines of experimenting with plant extracts for jet fuel or something like that. :o)

Something that bothered me was that the Doc asks the tech a "When" question, and she answers with more of a "What" reply. For instance, "what was the shift set at" would be a better question. But the way you approached it, I can make sense of the answer in that way.

A question about the island now must be, if the Casimir effect requires two objects to create the field between them, what is the physicality about the island that creates the effect? Is there a twin island that can't be seen (maybe underwater and not protruding) and the effect is produced between them? Or could the effect just be created between the properties of the main island and Falcatraz? Or perhaps underground there are two or more masses of materials (magnetic?) that are creating the effect, beneath the surface of the island. The Swan situation makes it look more like that is the case, with the containment wall. And now that I think about it, if there is an underwater mass, maybe the Looking Glass was placed between the island masses, and that's why it was called a "hatch" on the map, hence meaning that it lies inside the "effect" between the two bodies and is a doorway.

Very interesting how you connected the Orchid name to the problem of fertility! And one thing about the missing or stiff arms, is that I think that they involve opposite arms. Wasn't the Swan Doc's stiff arm the right one, and in the Flame's computer vid wasn't the Doc's left arm the one that was sitting stiff on the desk? I'll have to go back and look. If so, I wonder what that might mean?

Great reading as usual Fenris! Well sorry for the long post but you got me thinking! :-)

2costa said...

another interesting thing is how the background changes. the black wine bottle looks empty or even like a microscope right before the chaos look at comparison

http://www.flickr.com/photos/10865267@N06/978345921/

this orchid video reminded e alot of the chaos in jacobs hut how the lantern broke but then was fixed and jacob had a dark liquid in jars on his window. there is also a red thing in the orchid that only appears in the middle of the video. As you said orchid is a fertility symbol in many cultures. but somehow i think that poultice that locke made for boone and what he made himself may be tied to the dark liquid in both the jacob hutt and the orchid. It seem that the poultice makes you halluciante and gain a better understanding of the island. As you also said this is an incomplete video, which makes the dharma guys look like incompotent fools. Which might explain the jacob clip and the barracks up side down,upside down cross on julliette. This might be a fuck you to dharma from the others or radzinsky. Another thing this might be is a con. Candle saying he isnt an actor and all that plus the blooper with the bunny seem to add credence to the power of the island. To me it is much like ben shooting locke to make him beleive in jacob more. This outtake might be for the swan pusher to think his mission is really important. If kelvin was gonna leave on the sailboat and he thought the swan was saving the world why was he taking the failsafe key or try to take desmond with him. Just like ben pulled a long con on sawyer with rabbit 8 maybe this video is to mind-fuck you into thinking the cashamir effect is real. All it would take is some black spray paint and some number stencils

Amused2bHere said...

Verrry thought provoking.

So Penny's conversation with Charlie started her looking for the Island? Hmm...That would mean Charlie's contact with Penny was into the past, so that's what made her set up the listening post in Antarctica...but then they really detected the implosion of the Swan, so...brain cramp!

and Jacob could be a human experiment gone bad, and since he's from the future he'd have knowledge that would help guide Ben and the Others, a very handy resource that they would not be quick to give up (help him get unstuck).

If they were going to show the rabbit experiment on the orientation video, I think it might have been that they were supposed to send it into the future a few minutes. And the mess up was that they sent it backwards instead, so that it showed up when it wasn't supposed to, before the safety protocols were in place. Either way, someone's fired!

One more point: we have seen real time travel. Desmond actually went back in time, at least isn't that what Darlton said?

Thanks for a great blog, Fenris. Who said this was going to be a horrible hiatus? Sure, we miss Lost, but with all the great blogs around we have plenty to keep us busy.

Fenris said...

Hi all, thanks for the comments. A lot of great thoughts from you all. I will try and respond to them all, but I'm work so will be relatively brief.

Firstly I just want to say, as I understand it so far (and to help anyone struggling for a simple explenation that doesn't involve springs), the Casimir effect is caused by electromagnetic energy fluctuations within a vacume. In a nutshell, even nothing has some latent energy (zero point energy) which can cause two objects on a very small scale to attract. Where real life science leaves that, it is a point of interest, a factor to take into account in micro/nano engineering and will perhaps help us understand more of the nature of the universe, but it is a long way from stabalising wormholes or providing unlimited energy.

Secondly, there are a lot of options with this and I don't have a definitive opinion on ityet. So I like to try and entertain them all and see where they lead. If I've missed any possibilities I'd love to hear them.

Piscel - With the rabbit, there is a lot of potential paradox's thinking about it and I am struggling to find a situation that fits. If the -20 was a timeshift, then they could perhaps have prior to the video sent the rabit into the past by 20 minutes, but then if they had done that they would have already seen the rabbit didn't appear when they expected it (i.e. 20 minutes before the started the experiment). Where as if they sent it into the future, then yes, they would have expected it. The only possibility I can think of is that they intended the rabbit to appear during the video, but not for another 11 minutes, where apon the doc would have gotten rid of the other rabbit. Although this still seems very wreckless for a potentially dangerous experiment with elaborate safety measures.

This makes me wonder if it was indeed the same rabbit. But then they said "it's 15" not "it's A 15". Plus the doctor seemed angry enough to suggest that the lab staff there had indeed been very wreckless.

On Jacob, I have for a while thought he was subject to some kind of experiment. But what is throwing me a little now is the way the DI have religious brainwashing material with Jacob's name in. If the DI did originate that material , I have hard time believing that they actually did have any kind of religious connection with Jacob.

But then I have speculated before that the brain washing room was something the DI subject the Others to (perhaps making them the "others" in the first place), perhaps as a way to cover up these top secret experiments (and the repurcussions of them). Indeed I mentioned in the blog about the Pearl perhaps being a test of loyalty. Maybe those that failed the test were the subjects of the brainwashing and became the Others?

But anyway, yes I am very much on the theory that Jacob is how he is largely because of the DI experimentation and this specific field certainly seems to fit (previously I was looking at a Philadelphia project type thing, and indeed it's not that far off).

The Hieronymus effect sounds pretty interesting. I will have to do some research. Thanks.

Maven - Good point, perhaps that is how the Doc Brown effect pans out in Lost. You end up shifted slightly out of time and space, like Jacob. Nice one.

I have thought about multiple marvins. But I don't think that is the case. Although, you never know, maybe he is Jacob.

Capcom - Glad to get you thinking! That is my intention really. It really is amazing how much more you can think of when you are bouncing ideas back and forth. I guess that is the whole reason we have things like "think tanks".

I'm glad it wasn't just me that thought the cover story seemed a little flakey. But then to change directions a bit, perhaps it was some kind of genetecists that were being recruited. Plants have DNA, so they could claim to be working on that when actually at the Orchid they are examining the side effects on organic tissue of the "shift/Casimir like" effect. I was wondering before, if the Swan was also being used to harness this effect, then what specifically is the Orchids goal and perhaps that is it. The Casimir thing is a larger overall influence on Dharma and not limited to just one station. The other stations dealing with it maybe had other cover stories.

It's a possibility anyway.

That's an interesting theory about an anti-island. Maybe there is something in the sea off the coast of the island, or underneath the island (Why am I sudenly thinking "Cthulhu fhtagn"). I did kind of suspect they created the second object with the Swan station, but the effect they unleashed was more powerful/volitile then they first though, on the other hand maybe they built the Swan around one of the two central objects that had this effect (ancient temples anyone?).

2costa - Good point, it could just be a con. Which is a possibility. The mention of Rabit 8 is interesting too, I had forgotten he was numbered. Which is interesting in itself. I think it's beyond co-incidence that the rabbits we've seen have been numbered with THE numbers from the valencitty equation and the very things that the DI are attempting to change. Does each rabbit represent specifically those numbers somehow? Is the goal to zap a rabbit into a wormhole and hope it comes out as a different number? That just sounds nuts, but I can't help but wonder, why those numbers? Of course it could just be that they only had 6 rabbits to experiment on and they named them the numbers as a scientists idea of a joke. I can't wait to see what the other bunnies are up to. Lol. I bet 42 is the killer one, with the big teeth and the leaping. "Look at the bones!"

Amused - I was actually thinking more along the lines that Charlies conversation with penny was in the present, but that the bit at the end of Season 2 was in the future. That is to say the big electro magnetic blast actually appeared to the outside world several months after it happened on the islands timeline. But like most of what I wrote, it's just one possibility. It would explain a bit about how confused Penny seemed.

On the other hand, those on the boat had Desmonds picture, so that suggests Penny was indeed already looking for him. Although having said that, if that conversation was indeed into the past then that would make sense. As you say brain cramp!

I wasn't aware Desmonds trip to the past was confirmed as a physical time travel experience. I will have to look into that. If that is the case, then it really does look like the swan station was perhaps the "other object" to the island used in harnessing this effect and it would suggest then he was lucky not to end up like Jacob.

Anyway, I better do some work now.

*cough* comparitively short *cough*

2costa said...
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
2costa said...

the mackaws of the tle also made me think of hurley arent macaws big parrots? Well maybe that was tied to the bird that fly by saying hurley. I also think that libby being dharma(damon said thats not barking up the wrong tree) that might make hurley forgive mike for capping her and nobody liked ana so thats not a concern, as someone stated ana was shot in the womb before so she was no use to the others fertility porject.

2costa said...

oh ya and desmond later found his pic of penny again in the jungle. hey fenris something bothers me about the clips of gegroot and the bike guy in the orchid if you check them out they are cropped differntly then when they first appeared in dharma film. I thought it was rabbit cages right to the right of marv but it is a clothes locker, i think the swan has to be very close to the orchid if not just renamed. Fenris you also touched on what i was talking about with the hallucinagen and the ring of ash that binds jacob to the shack. those chemical/biological things cross over with physics, think about the huge particle colliders that are online now or the big one about to go online. When you mess with things on an atomic level you are doing physics, but fundamentally you are affecting chemistry too, with all the new elements you create on the periodic table. which in turn affect the basic tenats of biology. Thats where i see the hallucinagen tying in. I have always been fascinated how albert hoffman tweaked the lysergic acid amide molecule to make it lyserigic acid di-thalimide and made it 10,000 times stronger. almost like unlocking this unseen potential. I remember an article when hoffman turned 100 where he said the lisergic acid talked to him and told him the other scientsts would find nothing there. Back to my other point elements are the building blocks of chemistry the fact that we can create new ones is crazy almost like changing the core numerical values of the valanzetti equation..

2costa said...

that reminds me of the chemistry being tied to physics again, cosmolgists that theorize about the young universe are all about chemistry, heliums stars spawning new elements from helium and nitrogen.

Fenris said...

Woah, that's a lotta comment there Andre. It's almost a Fenris post. Hehe. Thanks for the comments. Also this is now the highest commented post since I started this blog and the first to reach double figures. Yay. :)

Okay well, I'm reading it backwards (I'm strange like that) so here's a few comments on the comments:

I've had it suggested to me before that the Orchid became the Swan, but I don't think this is the case, because doc Candle had on a Swan labcoat. So the Swan must have already existed and if the Orchid was just a cover name, why would it change station number and why do an orientation using the cover name.

Now as for it being close, that I can buy. The Pearl, the staff and the looking glass aren't that far from the Swan so it does suggest a central cluster.

Some of that science stuff is a bit too out of my field, but I get the gist, I think. Lol.

Uh, Hallucogen? This must be a theory I am unaware of. My personal theory on the volcanic ash was simply that at some point there was an ancient civisiation of volcano worshipers on the Island and the Others have followed their path somewhat. It could also be residue from an experiment where the hut was sent forwards in time or something like that.

I think that may be a little unfair suggesting no one really cared that Ana Lucia was killed by Micheal. Sure they all thought she was a bitch and the Others may not have seen value to her, but she was a person and I would say that there was at least a degree of respect for her. I also don't think that just being a part of Dharma would make Libby deserving of being shot, definetly not for Hurley. Besides we haven't determined Dharma to have been a bad thing.

I would struggle to accept that between Desmond loosing the pic and finding it again a third party (because I think it's safe to assume it's not the Others working with Naomi, given Bens determination to stop them) grabbed it, scanned it and set in motion a plot to convince the Lostaways it was Des's lost lover that had come to rescue them....because it's not as if they would have been unwelcome to the whole rescuing idea if Penny wasn't invovled. Infact I think the Penny picture probably made them *less* likely to trust the situation given the unlikely co-incidence of it all.

I do agree however there is some chance of Kelvin being a part of whatever conspiracy seems to be manipulating Desmonds destiny. How much of that, I don't know. It also could just be a co-incidence for Kelvins part (but perhaps he was being manipulated too). Kelvin was likely just a pawn, just like so many other people. Do you still believe he is alive and well btw? Clearly he didn't turn out to be Patchy, as you had previously predicted, but he could still be around somewhere I suppose.

On Walt, yeah I totally agree there. They were interested in him and perhaps Ben even took him to see Jacob and then he had to figure a way to get rid of him. Perhaps the whole situation with him being captured was to get rid of Walt. Although the writters have now suggested Ben didn't intend to be caught, at least in the manner he was caught....

Certainly we've seen Ben doesn't like competition. One thing that is different with Walt however is that he was considered "special" (and kinda creepy) even before he arrived on the island. Locke was called special by his slightly nutty mother, but we haven't seen any proof of that, other then not dying when thrown out of a building of course.

Okay, off the responses, just a couple of extra theories. What if one of the elements of the time travel is merely allowing peoples conciousness to travel throught their own lifeline. Which kinda explains Desmond and the Ring lady and perhaps Walt as well. It could be his potential wasn't unleashed until he came to the island, but in unleashed itself in such a way as to effect his life prior to reaching the island. This is similar to things I've suggested before. The only thing is it doesn't fit with the two rabbits situation, if that was indeed the same rabbit.

The other theory is a technical out of story one. I just suspect, given the aging that we will probably see Walt in flashforwards (and maybe the ghost type appearances) rather then in the flesh with Micheal next season.

Fenris said...

On a sidenote, I've had to delete one of your posts that used the F word ("mind f**K"). I'm not and I doubt anyone else is offended by it, but for those people that like to read and write blogs from work it can cause problems to have swear words posted. So sorry about that.

2costa said...

fenris you dont remmeber locke dosing boone on the back of his head or making something in the mortar and pescle that he took before he entered the sweatlodge? i think it may be a hallucinagen unique to the island. All those sixties profs like the degroots liked to experiment with lsd on unsuspecting people. I think sayid would be happy that ana was dead for killing shannon. If libby was truly dharma or others i think hugo would feel a little betrayed that she didnt tell him and was probably not into him. I agree that is is not the swan, but it may be adjoined to it through those blast doors that they have never opened. If you look at the blast door map there are lots of little sub-stations, plus the author didnt even know what the pearl was so it isnt infallable. Its strange that ben knows about the pearl, yet julliette said they dont know about the smoke or what it is. Yet the blast door map guys didnt know about the pearl, but knew a lot about the cerebus and its vents. I know there are people that disagree, but i dont think Ben can really hear what jacob was saying. I think that ash that was around the shack was also in the chair and ben put on a production knowing where jacob was bound. I agree with the travelling in their own liftimes, but the second bunny seems to say there is a whole other body too. And i think Naomis people are the others, the off island others, thats why mikhail unjammed the signal, he was more loyal to the offshore interest than ben, ben is loyal to himself and the island first and foremost. Ben has tons of weapons and he went to the tower lightly armed if armed at all, i contend that he did let jack make the radio call, ben is lyer we know that if every body dies when jack makes the call how is jack alive in the flash foward. I also think locke has shown specialness like his knife throwing skills and as you said living through a fall from a building...i also think ben is one like hawkins that can see the whole time line thats why he wanted locke to stop pressing the button and for instance left his father out there after the purge,for hurley to kill pryce later. If charlie was so meant to die why didnt the island take him then when the vw bus was going down the hill. The architect of the islands computer was a musician and wanted charlie to break the good vibrations code that was why he was there.

2costa said...

hey fenris did you see doc jensens article where he tied the orchid film to the movie "Adaption". If youve seen it the fake story within the story is called the orchid thief and there are dopplegangers

Fenris said...

Hi Andre, sorry for the slow reply.

Ahh yeah I see what you are saying with the hullucegens now. However, I don't think it can be unique to the island. There wasn't a suggestion Locke spontaneously knew how to make that. I more got the impression he knew what it was because it wasn't unique to the island and he has probably looked at shamanic stuff along with his tribal training. Maybe it's a plant he was expecting to find in the outback or something.

However, that does mean there are hallucagenic elements already present on the island, so it does open up some avenues. Thanks for the reminder.

Totally with you on the ajoining theory. I have always thought that there must have been more of an underground structure and links between some of the stations at some point. But it's never really been looked at in the story.

I read the Doc's article the other day and saw he is very much on the Orchid = The Swan band wagon. But I really don't agree there. Firstly he had the Swan logo in the Barracks too and the Barracks couldn't be further from the Swan. Secondly he didn't even try and figure out a reason for the station number change and finally there are over 25000 types of orchids. So suggesting that because one of those is called a "Swan Orchid" links the two is a bit far fetched.

There is a massive suggestion however that there is some kind of link between the stations. The Electro-magnetism link is so strong....uh, I guess it's naturally for two sites involving magnetism to be drawn together. LOL.

Fenris said...

I'm going to get hold of Adaption. It sounds like something worth checking out and from the looks of the imdb rating maybe entertaining too. I'll let you know my thoughts after I've seen it.

2costa said...

ya your right fen the fact that its on film and not tape suggests the same magnatism issues of the swan orientation being on film. i wanna see these mobisodes see if they are related to the orchid. We are in total accord that i dont think the orchid is the swan, i think thats why that took out the swan timer out of the clip, so as to not paint themselves in a corner. Hey fenris did you ever notice that the picture of the helgus antonius has a a dude with an eyepatch on the deck...

http://www.flickr.com/photos/10865267@N06/1116674874/

Skip said...

Regarding the good Doctor's multiple names...

I have to think that the welcome thingy we saw in Ben's flashback was staged. Firstly there were the 2 guys seen in the welcome video who were also arriving that day. The second thing is, what would someone think about watching the welcome video and then hunkering down in a hatch and watching an orientation video with the same guy but he's got a different name?

Fenris said...

Good point Palmer, and good to see a new face on the blog.

I have wondered about this. I think the Swan could be understood as we don't know if the people there were ever at the Barracks (they seem to live out of the Swan, hence needing drops). But the Pearl throws that all off (ignoring the Orchid for now). Their orientation talks about them returning to the barracks so we know that they would be at both locations and therefore if the video at the barracks was genuine they would certainly be confused.

I need to check on these 2 people you mention. I suppose it is possible it was staged, filmed that day or broadcast live, but that doesn't explain the pearl. Unless the pearl was already out of operation, they were brainwashed before they went there or Candle really does have twins.

Even aside from the Barracks video the pearl doesn't sit right. There is something fishy about all the orientation videos really.

I suppose the big question is why.

Skip said...

The 2 guys in question are the older white man with the gray beard and the black gentleman. See here:

http://losteastereggs.blogspot.com/2007/05/who-are-they.html